Manganeese or other metalic jet fuel additives

Re: Manganeese or other metalic jet fuel additives

Postby j79guy on Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:38 pm

Terry,

Not unless I beat you to it, so let's combine forces.
I've done a bit of reading on NH3 over the last few days, and the picture is a bit clearer. Sounds like Ammonia at stoich is difficult to light off, but if combustion is initiated via another (Traditional) fuel, NH3 can then be introduced into the combustor(s).
I have the capability to start my turbines on vapourous propane, and then transition over to Ammonia. A J79 is a bit thirsty, so logically something like a solar Saturn perhaps would be a better starting point.
Dual fuel nozzles might be a way to go too, as they are available for several different aeroderivitive units. Light off on diesel/Jet-A, and transition over to Ammonia vapour. I have a set of dual fuel nozzles for the Allison 501/T56, so perhaps that may be a viable option to try.

As far as automotive goes though, it seems you have to get about 5% hydrogen separated from the Ammonia to permit reliable ignition. The new style vapour propane injection should be compatible, so long as copper, brass and zinc components are eliminated but the information as to how to get the 5% H2 separated out, is still tight hole information.

Robin.
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Re: Manganeese or other metalic jet fuel additives

Postby TillamookTurbine on Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:29 pm

As you probably know, most ammonia is currently made from natural gas and generates a lot of CO2. However, there is a fairly new process that uses electrcity farily efficiently, atmospheric N2, and H2O. Generating the fuel with the process results in a zero carbon footprint cycle so could conceivably catch on. The problem for aviation is, as you noted, that NH3 behaves sort of like propane so a pressure vessel is required for fuel storage. Sort of heavy for aircraft. It may be viable for terrestrial and fixed power plant use, though.

One light off suggestion, maybe not feasible for general public use, is to use Red Fuming Nitric Acid (RFNA). NH3's hypergolic with RFNA, I think, so you just inject a squirt of RFNA when the fuel flow comes up and, voila! instant flame. Similar how the J58 was lit on the SR-71. Pyrophorric TEB was injected to get the low volatility JP10 burning on start.

Terry
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Re: Manganeese or other metalic jet fuel additives

Postby j79guy on Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:18 pm

Terry,

Sounds like the ME163 Komet, that used C-Stof and T-Stof. Biggest problem was landing on that skid arrangement. If it didn't break your back, the residual fuel could melt your skin.

Yes, That is the direction I was heading as well. No use developing a non-hydrocarbon based fuel, if during the manufacture CO2 is produced. Seems like everything is ultimately leading back to PV cells. Expensive and inefficient. Perhaps it truly is becoming time to pay the piper for our excesses in fossil fuel use.

Robin.
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Re: Manganeese or other metalic jet fuel additives

Postby TillamookTurbine on Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:11 pm

The one thing that I've really noticed flying around the US recently in my other job (Lear) is the number of windmills that I see. Way out in the middle of nowhere in Texas and South Dakota, for instance. I'm not sure that they make all the much sense with the current grid arrangement (other than tax considerations). But if there's a lot of orphan electrical power sitting around, somebody will find a use for it. If NH3 can be made with GN2, H2O, and electrical power, efficiently, it may just all come together to switch to an ammonia economy to some degree.

Terry
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Re: Manganeese or other metalic jet fuel additives

Postby TillamookTurbine on Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:56 pm

Do you have some gas/liquid nozzles for the Cj610 like I think that you have for the J79. If not, do you think we can build some. If so, I think I'll propose NH3 as part of the AFOSR program. The ground runs could lead to an AF flight demo with C21's. You may remember the C21 is simply a Lear 35 in USAF paint. The cool thing is that the tip tanks on Lears are circular cross section and it would be easy to build a filament wound pressure vessel to take the place of the tips. Kerosene could still be operated since the wing is an integral tank. Start on JP8 and then have a FADEC that starts feeding in NH3.

The tips are well away from the cabin so vapor issues are minimized. Prove it first on a CJ610.

Terry
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Re: Manganeese or other metalic jet fuel additives

Postby f4dj79 on Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:12 am

I can see the industry looking in this direction no Carbon emissions. Wow NH3, I though we were talking about NH4 the ionized version. NH3 is really a different story I read that the X-15 use this for fuel. I learned something wow. So my question would be flash point, what is it? and can it be used in an after burner?
WB
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Re: Manganeese or other metalic jet fuel additives

Postby j79guy on Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:40 pm

NH3 is tough to light off unless there is a flame already established, or a percentage of the hydrogen is flashed off and remixed in, to promote ignition.

Afterburner? Simple enough to try.

Fuel nozzles for J85/CJ610? Nope, I don't have any at the moment. I do have a dual fuel set for the Rolls Royce/Allison 501K/T56 engine. (And happen to have a T56-15 engine as well.) Maybe we could run it as an Industrial 501KB, or put an RBG on it and run a club prop.

We're starting to tread where money and future business potentially lies. Perhaps we should curtail this discussion on-line and use PMs or regular e-mail instead.

Robin.
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Re: Manganeese or other metalic jet fuel additives

Postby f4dj79 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:02 am

Its been some time since the last posting about alternative fuels, how is the ammonia fuels progressing? I have not heard much about the usage or test results.
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